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Christians have fallen victim to a massive lie perpetuated throughout most of the Christian era.

The lie is this: "The Bible clearly teaches that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one being".

Meaning, you are OK believing that that is true doctrine, but you can't justify that doctrine with an appeal to the Bible.

(One Being = One Essence = Consubstantial = Homoousis)

This lie is so ridiculously easy to expose that many Trinitarian biblical scholars readily admit it.

In order to expose this lie, let me start by pointing out the 3 and only 3 places in the Bible where it even gets close to this doctrine, and why those passages do NOT mean what they seem to mean in context.

1. The Shema Deuteronomy 6:4: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:" (KJV) "Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God, the Lord alone." (NRSVue) "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." (NIV)
2. Isaiah 43:10 (and surrounding passages of similar effect): "Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me." (NIV, others very similar)
3. John 10:30: "I and the Father are one"

RE the Shema: As you can see, the NRSVUE translates the word "one" as "alone". Why? Because God is distinguishing himself from the other gods mentioned in Deuteronomy. In fact, Deuteronomy 33, especially in light of the Dead Sea Scrolls, describes how El Elyon (The Most High God) has divided the nations, giving them each their own God, and giving Israel to YHWH. Therefore, YHWH and YHWH alone is the God of Israel.

RE Isaiah: Reading Isaiah in context shows (1) That God is explaining that he alone will redeem / save Israel and (2) That they shouldn't be following the other gods. Importantly, the exact phrasing that is used by God saying "I am the only God" is the exact phrasing used to describe how Babylon thinks that they are the bestest city forever. (Isaiah 47:10)

RE the Old Testament / Hebrew: Scholars must contend with Genesis 2:24, which says husbands and wives should "become one flesh". If there ever was a verse teaching homoousis, this is probably it, and it's not describing the relationship between Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

Finally, as far as the Old Testament goes, the Holy Ghost isn't clearly represented as a separate person. The text uses words that suggest it is the breath of God, or a wind, or something like that, rather than a person.

Thus, I close the Old Testament confident that not only is the Holy Ghost not clearly represented as a different person of the Holy Trinity, but it is nowhere ever taught that they are of one essence / consubstantial / homoousis. I think pretty much everyone who reads the Old Testament would agree with me there.

In the New Testament, we contend with John's representation that Jesus said "I and the Father are one". This is easily refuted because in John 17, Jesus clearly states that he wants the disciples to enjoy the same oneness that he experiences with the Father. Rather than citing specific verses, I encourage you to read the whole thing so that you can see for yourself how explicit it is.

Conclusion: The only thing "clear" in the Bible is that the doctrine of the Trinity, specifically, that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one being / one essence / consubstantial / homoousis, is NOT taught.

(If you're upset that I didn't mention the Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7-8), you should go look that up first before trying to use it. Not only is it not part of the oldest copies, but it doesn't mean what you think it means in light of John 17.)

PS: The reason why I am bringing this up is because Christianity is under attack, and you guys who are saying these absurd things are creating HUGE vectors of attack. You need NOT defend against these particular attacks! IE, you DON'T HAVE TO JUSTIFY THAT THE BIBLE IS INERRANT BECAUSE IT IS NOT! Defend things that can be defended!
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45 comments:
TallestSkil on scored.co
28 days ago 6 points (+0 / -0 / +6Score on mirror ) 1 child
You really got ass-blasted by being proven wrong, didn’t you.

>In the New Testament, we contend with John's representation that Jesus said "I and the Father are one". This is easily refuted because in John 17, Jesus clearly states that he wants the disciples to enjoy the same oneness that he experiences with the Father.

Yep. IN SPIRIT. BECAUSE THE HOLY SPIRIT IS ALSO GOD.

>The reason why I am bringing this up is because Christianity is under attack

*“I will couch my attack in a defense so that you don’t notice I’m undermining you in the same way my people have done for the last 2000 years!”*
zk3hf9dB on scored.co
28 days ago 0 points (+0 / -0 ) 1 child
> You really got ass-blasted by being proven wrong, didn’t you.

When did that happen?

What does my ass have to do with it?

*Are you obsessed with anal sex?*

> Yep. IN SPIRIT. BECAUSE THE HOLY SPIRIT IS ALSO GOD.

CONGRATULATIONS! You deny the Trinity!

> “I will couch my attack in a defense so that you don’t notice I’m undermining you in the same way my people have done for the last 2000 years!”

I wasn't the one misrepresenting the contents of the Bible...

You protestants have only been around for about 500 years anyway.
TallestSkil on scored.co
28 days ago 3 points (+0 / -0 / +3Score on mirror ) 1 child
>When did that happen?

>[makes jewish propaganda thread]

>[gets destroyed by all replies]

>[gets so angry he makes ANOTHER thread with the same propaganda]

Gee, I wonder.

>CONGRATULATIONS! You deny the Trinity!

Thanks for conceding the argument and admitting the exact opposite of what you claimed.

>I wasn't the one misrepresenting the contents of the Bible…

Already disproven.

>You protestants

Yawn. You’re shit at your job.
TestableHypothesis on scored.co
28 days ago 2 points (+0 / -0 / +2Score on mirror ) 1 child
OP appears to adopt Mormon thinking; speaking as if God and the Holy Spirit were/are human/person/man. However, it may just be a subtle dismissal that Jesus was God before (and still is) becoming man.
What's next? Jesus wasn't God because "Son of man"?
zk3hf9dB on scored.co
27 days ago 0 points (+0 / -0 )
> God and the Holy Spirit were/are human/person/man

The Latter-day Saints reject only one part of the doctrine of the Trinity, that the three persons are one being.

We adopt the Biblical view that there are three beings in union, all represented as God in the Bible (under various names.)

The Book of Mormon is very, VERY explicit that the YHWH in the OT is pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, an eternal God with no beginning or end. It even goes so far as why the title "Father" can be applied to the "Son", because he was the agent that actually created the earth and is the agent that redeems it.

People try to say that we teach that Christ was created, or in other words, there was a time where Christ did not exist, but this is not found in any of our teachings. In fact, we teach that all of humanity is co-eternal with God.

**MY POINT** however was NOT to disprove the Trinity. My point was to disprove the idea that the Bible "clearly teaches" the Trinity, an oft-repeated trope that protestants use. At least Catholic and Orthodox are honest and explain that the Trinity is found in later creeds and councils and the traditions, not necessarily the Biblical text.
Lord_Cthulhu on scored.co
28 days ago 3 points (+0 / -0 / +3Score on mirror ) 2 children
The 1st Paragraph of the Old Testament... its right there...

Genesis 1
IN the beginning God made the heaven and the earth. But the earth was unsightly and unfurnished, and darkness was over the deep, and the Spirit of God moved over the water.

Who is The Spirit of God?

Skip to 26 and read:
And God said, Let US make man according to our image and likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the flying creatures of heaven, and over the cattle and all the earth, and over all the reptiles that creep on the earth.

Who is God talking to? All the other times God creates the Bible just says YHWH created something, but when humans are created YHWH says US.

John 1 makes it clear Jesus is part of it too...

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jesus WAS YHWH from the Beginning...



zk3hf9dB on scored.co
28 days ago 0 points (+0 / -0 ) 2 children
I assume you are refuting my point that the Holy Ghost isn't clearly a distinct person in the OT

In which case you failed

You're going to have to show that the Spirit of God mentioned in 1:2 is acting like an independent person and not some emanation from the Father / YHWH / Jesus or whatever you interpret. Because if he's just an emanation, then it's not the Trinity but some heresy (I forget which)

The NT, on the other hand, seems to promote the Spirit of God as a separate entity/person from the Father and the Son, but it's a hard sell and isn't very clear throughout the text.
Lord_Cthulhu on scored.co
28 days ago 2 points (+0 / -0 / +2Score on mirror ) 1 child
When YHWH says let US create, who does he mean? Angels can't create... Who else is with Him?
zk3hf9dB on scored.co
27 days ago 0 points (+0 / -0 )
The Council of the Gods mentioned in Psalms

Latter-day Saints do not distinguish between gods and men. In other words, men are gods. "Ye are gods" Jesus said. We might be acorns and God the oak tree, but we are the same species.
SugarlessGrub5 on scored.co
27 days ago 0 points (+0 / -0 ) 1 child
John 14 makes it very clear that the three (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) are one.

>1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 **Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father**; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 **And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;**
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; **for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.**
18 **I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.**
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 **At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.**
zk3hf9dB on scored.co
27 days ago 0 points (+0 / -0 ) 1 child
> At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

This explicitly refutes any idea that the "one being" nature of the Trinity is taught at all in the Bible.

You're just proving my point. The language in the Bible cannot possible mean "one being".
SugarlessGrub5 on scored.co
27 days ago 0 points (+0 / -0 ) 1 child
It is taught.

John 1:1,14 KJV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
zk3hf9dB on scored.co
27 days ago 0 points (+0 / -0 ) 1 child
"and the Word was God"

That's not what the Greek says.

Regardless, where does this say "The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one being"? I'm not seeing it.

I fully affirm every word of those verses, even "The Word is God" despite the Greek, and yet I do not affirm that they are one being. It's not even hard for me to do that.
deleteme1234 on scored.co
27 days ago 0 points (+0 / -0 )

> Genesis uses plural words

Ugh. The Royal Plural (Pluralis Majestatis) denotes majesty and supreme power, not multiple deities. Kings and monarchs use plural titles to display absolute supremacy. Furthermore, Genesis 1:27[a] immediately switches back to singular verbs.

> asks regarding the audience of Genesis

The heavenly host. Angels exist. Claiming the Creator required assistance from a second co-equal God defines literal polytheism.

> equating mortal flesh with YHWH

Numbers 23:19[b] explicitly outlaws equating the Creator with a mortal man. The Eternal Creator never bleeds. Mortal flesh bleeds. Calling mortal flesh YHWH represents the ultimate pagan psyop. First-century prophets reading Genesis never worshipped a Triune godhead.

Drop the Roman polytheism. Bow with face to the earth and worship the Father alone.

[a] (Genesis 1:27, King James Version: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.")

[b] (Numbers 23:19, King James Version: "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?")
fourleaved on scored.co
27 days ago 1 point (+0 / -0 / +1Score on mirror ) 1 child
We see all over the New Testament how things uniquely applied to God in the Old Testament apply to Jesus.

We are to worship God alone (Exodus 34:14, Deuteronomy 6:13, Matthew 4:10).

Yet Jesus is worshiped (Matthew 14:33, Matthew 28:9, Matthew 28:17, John 9:38, Hebrews 1:6).

> "To him that sitteth on the throne, and to the Lamb, benediction, and honour, and glory, and power, for ever and ever." Revelation 5:11-14

And remember Paul (Acts 10:25-26) and even the Angels (Revelation 22:8-9) refuse worship, but Jesus does not (Revelation 19:10).

God alone created all things (Isaiah 44:24, Nehemiah 9:6).

Yet Jesus also made all things (John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:16-17, 1 Corinthians 8:6).

God is to judge every deed (Ecclesiastes 12:14) and every nation (Joel 3:12) and the whole earth (Genesis 18:25).

Yet Jesus is the judge of the living and the dead (Acts 10:42, 2 Timothy 4:1) and the nations (Matthew 25:31–46)

How can exclusive worship, sole creation, and universal judgement belong to multiple things? They can't, so these things must be one.

As for the Holy Spirit, who speaks (Acts 13:2), teaches (John 14:26), can be grieved (Ephesians 4:30), intercedes (Romans 8:26), distributes gifts and has a will (1 Corinthians 12:11). These are things a person does, not winds or breaths.
zk3hf9dB on scored.co
27 days ago 0 points (+0 / -0 ) 1 child
> Jesus is worshiped; Jesus created; Jesus judges

Because Jesus is God.

I am not refuting that the Bible teaches that Jesus is God. It's pretty clear that it does. It takes a lot of effort to not read the subtext of several key passages teaching this. You are doing a pretty good job of proving that.

Now show me that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are "one being".

No such passage exists in the Bible. Several passages show that they are not. In fact, the idea of polytheism is spread out throughout the text, both the Old and New Testaments. (Paul famously says Satan is the god of this earth; Jesus confronts Satan in the wilderness while fasting, etc...)

I am not refuting the doctrine of the Trinity. I am refuting the idea that it is clearly taught in the Bible, specifically that they are "one being".
fourleaved on scored.co
26 days ago 0 points (+0 / -0 )
No such passage exists that says God is omniscient or omnipresent, or that Christ has a divine and human nature, or that God the Son became incarnate, or that man inherits guilt from Adam's original sin, or that Christian Sabbath is a Sunday, or even which books do or don't belong in the Bible.

Not explicitly stated =/= Not biblical.

The Bible also does not teach polytheism.

> "Before me there was no God formed, and after me there shall be none." Isaiah 43:10
CaptainTrouble on scored.co
27 days ago 0 points (+0 / -0 ) 1 child
The Father, Son and Ghost are seperate beings but they're all connected.

The easiest way to think of it is like a linked chain. Seperate chain links but all connected. The Father (God) is the source of everything (first link in the chain and everything after him was created from him).

The reason there's confusion is because sometimes the seperate chain links (father, son and ghost) are referred to as the whole chain-link rather than as their specific link (entity). And, since everything is created through the Father (God), sometimes people just refer to any entity as God because ultimately any entity created in succession down the chain is God like the Father since it's created as a part of the Father. Humans were created in God's image but are not connected to God in the chain-link in the same way the Son and Ghost are thus humans are not God but can attain this connection through the chain if they're saved by following the instructions of the Son. This is going to "heaven".

Ultimately, all this stuff doesn't matter too much. I feel people get a little too caught up in semantics like this as if it matters. It doesn't. If it doesn't change how you act irl, then it doesn't matter.
zk3hf9dB on scored.co
27 days ago 0 points (+0 / -0 )
My point was not to refute the Trinity.

My point was that the Bible does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity, specifically the "one being" part.
bluewhiteandred on scored.co
27 days ago 0 points (+0 / -0 ) 1 child
I have two separate hands connected to one body (imperfect best analogy), my mormon friend
zk3hf9dB on scored.co
27 days ago 0 points (+0 / -0 )
Nice.

I believe you're contradicting the Trinity with the heresy of partialism, however.

There is no analogy that describes the Trinity, and I would encourage you to study your own doctrine which would confirm as much.

My point, however, was not to refute the Trinity. It was to refute the notion that the Bible teaches the Trinity, specifically the "one being" part.
deleteme1234 on scored.co
27 days ago 0 points (+0 / -0 ) 1 child
Trinity is a satanic pagan psysop. Jesus, once back, will smash the cross, deny the blasphemous cross worshippers, and destroy the corrupt Church.
zk3hf9dB on scored.co
27 days ago 0 points (+0 / -0 ) 1 child
You are wrong on all counts.

I believe the Trinity falls out from the abominable idea that God and man are not the same species, which is clearly taught in the Bible in multiple ways and multiple places. I can point anyone to several verses that obviously teach this concept.

Once you've adopted the abomination that God and man are separate and can never be united, then you invent things like the Trinity or Islam to try and explain away the plain meaning of the scripture.

Jesus, when he returns, will redeem all those who professed faith on his name. Those who reject him will be destroyed and sent to a form of the Christian hell, where they will be taught about Jesus and given an opportunity to accept him.

The churches that were formed in his name will continue after his Second Coming, and gradually be restored and brought back.

This is what Latter-day Saints actually teach.

The process began in 1820. It is noteworthy that virtually all of the Christian sects have gradually adopted Latter-day Saint doctrines since then. The trend is clear.
deleteme1234 on scored.co
26 days ago 0 points (+0 / -0 ) 1 child
> "God and man are not the same species"

What an abominable idea!
Equating the Uncreated, Eternal Creator with a biological, limited mortal species represents the absolute pinnacle of satanic paganism. A "species" implies biology, physical boundaries, and limitations. Entities possessing boundaries lack infinite power. Limited entities equal zero Almighty Gods.


> claims the Bible clearly teaches this concept

Numbers 23:19[a] explicitly outlaws equating the Creator with mortals. The text absolutely destroys the "same species" delusion.

> "process began in 1820"

Replacing ancient monotheism with 19th-century American fanfiction remains pure comedy. The 1820 doctrines literally resurrect the original satanic lie from Genesis 3:5[b], promising godhood to mortals.
True prophets never taught human progression into deities. True prophets pressed foreheads to the dirt in absolute submission to the singular, incomparable Father (Matthew 26:39[c]).


Drop the polytheism brainrot. Bow to the floor and worship the Father alone.

---

[a] (Numbers 23:19, King James Version: "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?")

[b] (Genesis 3:5, King James Version: "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.")

[c] (Matthew 26:39, King James Version: "And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.")
zk3hf9dB on scored.co
26 days ago 0 points (+0 / -0 ) 1 child
Bible passages clearly indicating that we are the same species as God, and entitled, through Christ, to become like God:

* Acts 17:28-29
* Genesis 1:26-27
* Matthew 23:9
* Ephesians 4:6
* Galatians 4:6
* Romans 8:15
* Deuteronomy 32:6
* 2 Kings 2:12
* 2 Peter 1:3-4
* Revelation 3:21

Refuting Numbers 23:19: It clearly states that God is not capable of lying or changing his mind, like mortal humans do. He keeps his promises, unlike us.

It does not state that God and man are separate species.

Genesis 3:5 is easily refuted by Genesis 3:22. The serpent did not lie -- we did become like God.

One of the oldest teachings of the church is theosis, a doctrine that has spoken of often by the Church Fathers and still maintained by the Orthodox. In fact, it is now part of the Catholic catechism as they were all but forced to admit it was an early doctrine. It's the protestants who refuse to embrace tradition and the clear meaning of the Bible in this regard, probably because they are consumed by hatred against Joseph Smith, who restored this doctrine.
deleteme1234 on scored.co
25 days ago 0 points (+0 / -0 ) 1 child
> "The serpent did not lie"

Openly vindicating Satan? You can't be serious. Genesis 3:22[a] explicitly states mortals gained knowledge of evil, resulting in immediate banishment and death, not literal omnipotence. Satan promised divinity; mortals received corpses.

> "Refuting Numbers 23:19... does not state that God and man are separate"

The text literally states "God is not a man"[b]. Bending explicitly clear verses to fit 1820s American cult doctrines requires massive cognitive dissonance.

> equates Orthodox theosis with Latter-day Saint doctrines

Massive historical ignorance. Orthodox theosis simply means reflecting divine grace, never literally transforming into a co-equal Almighty Creator. Eastern Orthodox councils condem "same species" paganism. Latter-day Saint theology teaches the Creator was once a mortal man on another planet. Such pagan mythology violates fundamental metaphysics.

The Uncreated Creator lacks boundaries, limits, and biology. Mortals possess boundaries, limits, and biology. Blurring the line between Created and Uncreated constitutes literal idolatry.

Drop the satanic psyop. Place forehead on the ground and worship the Uncreated Father alone.

---

[a] (Genesis 3:22, King James Version: "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:")

[b] (Numbers 23:19, King James Version: "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?")
zk3hf9dB on scored.co
25 days ago 0 points (+0 / -0 ) 1 child
Genesis 3:22 says "Man is become as one of us"

I am not vindicating the Serpent, I am showing you that "man is become as one of us" according to the text.

Numbers 23:19 doesn't say "God is not a man." It says "God is not a man that does do X" There's a big different. It's like a cop saying "I am not a cop that lies and cheats and steals." It doesn't mean he isn't a cop, it means he's not that sort of cop.

> theosis

Latter-day Saints DO NOT TEACH and HAVE NEVER TAUGHT that we will ever become equal with God. We have always taught that we will become LIKE God.

**Latter-day Saints do not teach that God was a man on another planet.** That is a strange reading of the King Follet Discourse, which, if you know your history at all, is not a verbatim quote from Joseph Smith, as one of the accounts explicitly contradicting that idea.

It is also contrary to our clear doctrines, explicitly taught over the pulpit and found in multiple places in our canon, which is that God is Eternal and has been God from all eternity.

The "clear" part of the King Follet Discourse is that Joseph Smith was saying that THE BIBLE said that God had to take on flesh and give it up to be resurrected, since Christ did it and Christ said he did nothing but what he saw the Father do. Christ was merely showing us, with his life, what the Father did, and what we must do ourselves.

I don't understand Trinitarians who say that God could not take flesh and die and be resurrected, since that is exactly what God did in their theology. It's utterly ridiculous. Did God take on flesh, die, and get resurrected? That's the entire Gospel that Paul was preaching in Galatians. If anyone teaches anything contrary to that, they are not from God!
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