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It seems to me that all evidence points to Germans having no intention of killing all the jews in the beginning before the war and into the war.

Where cracks start to form is likely mid-war and at the point it started to become apparent that Germany was probably going to lose. I think some of the leadership may have suggested or attempted a desperation move of killing as many jews as they could knowing that they were going to lose. At least then, they'd have saved Europe from the jews they did permanently annihilate. I believe this idea was not unanimously agreed upon nor sanctioned by Hitler himself but was definitely a growing idea that was slightly spoken about but also unspoken among the leadership to keep a sort of "secret group" of hardliners that believed this was the better route to take. Hitler was somewhat aware of these headliners and their views but wasn't in a position to do anything about it even if he wanted too because his political capital mid-war to do anything about it wasn't there.

I think Hitler always intended to deport the jews and wasn't thinking with a mindset of losing the war so in Hitler's mind, the concentration camps were adequate but some of the other leaders doubted Germany's ability to win, like Himmler, & felt that keeping jews in internment camps was taking up too many resources so I believe some of Hitler's officers may have circumvented Hitler's commands to quietly kill jews instead of deport and/or keep them in internment camps. I believe these officers also felt by permanently ending these jews, it ensured despite Germany losing the war, that perhaps it wouldn't becomes judaised (of course, this didn't happen but I can see how one might think this before Germany had lost if you felt the jews were ultimately the problem).

I think the number 6m is pure fiction and the 200,000 seems a lot more reasonable as a number of jews who died. Not all of them would have been killed by Germans intentionally but from starvation and sickness due to a lack of supplies during the war.

Overall, there was definitely some intention of higher up officers to kill all the jews but that sentiment wasn't necessarily shared among all leadership and never directly ordered. In the chaos of the war some high ranking Germans definitely did kill jews intentionally but many also died from sickness and hunger due to a lack of resources. The total number of jews who died is closer to 200,000 instead of 6,000,000.

Thoughts?
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TallestSkil on scored.co
9 months ago 15 points (+0 / -0 / +15Score on mirror ) 1 child
>I think some of the leadership may have suggested or attempted a desperation move of killing as many jews as they could knowing that they were going to lose.

Why, then, are there zero documents to this effect, even in encoded messages that were cracked by the Bletchley Park listeners? Why, then, were jews *not* killed en masse, since rope is extremely cheap and all the guards were armed?

>I think Hitler always intended to deport the jews

[Well](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement), yeah. [Obviously.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan)

>I believe some of Hitler's officers may have circumvented Hitler's commands to quietly kill jews instead of deport and/or keep them in internment camps.

So where are the documents to this effect? Where are the graves? Where were the resources used to cremate them?

>Overall, there was definitely some intention of higher up officers to kill all the jews

To what evidence?

>never directly ordered.

Is that why it just didn’t happen at all? Because there were just no orders?

>Thoughts?

You don’t need to apologize for any aspect of the jewish narrative. **To *be* a jew is to be a lie.** They’ve done nothing but lie since the foundation of their ideology. They are the quintessential Cain, doing things (or not doing things) and then lying about having done them. Cursed for eternity for the sin of claiming salvation in damnation.
CaptainTrouble on scored.co
9 months ago 0 points (+0 / -0 ) 1 child
Can you refute Himmler's speech in 1943? The way I interpret it is that he'd basically turn a blind eye if some jews ended up dead, almost encouraging it in as subtle a way as possible. Inferring it was happening to a degree already but not being blunt as to order it because of the fact it would go against Hitler's wishes.
TallestSkil on scored.co
9 months ago 9 points (+0 / -0 / +9Score on mirror ) 1 child
>Can you refute Himmler's speech in 1943?

Can you refute his letter in 1942?

>SS Main Office of Economic Administration Service Group D Concentration Camp
>D III/Az.: 14 n (KL) 12.42 Lg/Wy

>Oranienburg
>28 December 1942
>Regarding: Medical Activities in the Concentration Camps

>SECRET

>To the 1. Camp Doctors of the Concentration Camps Da., Sh. Bu., Neu., Au., Rav., Flo., Lu., Stu., Gr-Ro., Nied., Natz., Hinz., Mor., Herzog., Mau.,

>Copy to Camp Commandants

>In the inclosed a compilation of the current arrivals and departures in all the concentration camps is sent to you for your information. It discloses that out of the 136,000 arrivals about 70,000 died. With such a high rate of death the number of the prisoners can never be brought up to the figure as has been ordered by the Reichsführer of the SS. The 1. camp doctors must use all means at their disposal to reduce essentially this death rate in the various camps. The best doctor in a concentration camp is not the one, who believes that he must stand out for uncalled severity, but the one who by his supervision and exchange keeps the working capacity at the various labor commands at the highest possible level. The camp doctors must supervise more often than in the past the food of the prisoners and, with approval of the administration, submit improvement proposals to the camp commandants. These, however, must not only appear on paper, but must be controlled regularly by the camp doctors. Furthermore, the camp doctors are to see to it that the working conditions at the various labor places are improved as much as possible. To this purpose it will be necessary that the camp doctors inspect the labor places on the ground and convince themselves about the conditions of work.

>**The SS Reichsführer has ordered that the death rate absolutely must be reduced.** For this reason the aforementioned has been ordered and a monthly report on this matter is to be submitted to the Chief of the Department D III. The first report to be submitted on 1 February 1943.

>[Signature illegible]
>Klueder [?]

>SS Brigadeführer and Major General of the Arms

[Nuremberg Trial Document PS-2171, Annex 2. NC&A Red Series, Vol. 4, pp. 833-834.](http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/NT_Nazi_Vol-IV.pdf)
CaptainTrouble on scored.co
9 months ago 0 points (+0 / -0 ) 2 children
So you can see how his state of mind may have changed in 1.5 years, right? Germany had lost some key battles and it likely was becoming clear to Himmler, that they weren't going to win. Furthermore, the death rate likely continued to go up not down in the period of time due to even worsening supply-lines. It would make sense to me that Himmler may have concluded that just killing them all made more sense. Had the letter you posted came after his speech, I wouldn't be able to refute it but the timing of the letter, then war efforts, then speech seem to align with a changing sentiment through the experience of the war.
TallestSkil on scored.co
9 months ago 5 points (+0 / -0 / +5Score on mirror ) 1 child
> It would make sense to me that Himmler may have concluded that just killing them all made more sense.

Sane human beings don’t think like that. Mass murder is a jewish invention. The idea of actively and purposefully exterminating an entire race doesn’t enter the minds of anyone but [the genetically insane.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_Must_Perish!) Even if you want to pretend this happened, you still have the problem of no jews actually being killed. It was *literally* all disease deaths.
deleted 9 months ago 1 point (+0 / -0 / +1Score on mirror ) 1 child
WeedleTLiar on scored.co
9 months ago 3 points (+0 / -0 / +3Score on mirror )
He explicitly states that the purpose of reducing deaths was to have more labour power for the war effort. Why would he give that up if they were losing?

I'll also point out that "kill the Jews" is a Jewish propaganda point; it was never the purpose of the Reich. What the NatSocs were trying to do was to rebuild and restore Germany and the Jews were in the way. If they'd have left when they were told, nobody would have gone looking for them to "save the world". Yes, they hunted them down *in Germany* and other occupied territories because, if they didn't, the Jews would have gone right back to their old tricks.

The point is: there's no evidence, or even a suggestion, that anyone in Germany was thinking about sacrificing even the tiniest chance of winning just to kill Jews.

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