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TakenusernameA on scored.co
1 year ago0 points(+0/-0)1 child
My issue with Sedevacantism is that we dont ultimately know whats going on in the Pope's soul and whether or not he's being coerced into making the heretical statements he's made. Someone can make an off the cuff heretical remark out of ignorance or human fear without being a formal heretic, (see St, Peter, who denied Christ three times out of fear of the jews). Ultimately the Pope is a reflection of the Laity, and like it or not Pope Francis is a perfect mirror of the generation of Cultural Catholics he comes from. Theres also the issue of whether or not being a formal heretic can even make someone's papacy illegitimate, since I'm unsure if the issue has ever even arisen in the past. My main issue with sedes though is that they would rather separate themselves from the rest of the Heirarchy and put their heads in the sand than go in and purge the Seminaries of heresies, which is what needs to be done to actually fix things.
I think those issues have been addressed, if you want to research them or I can provide info if requested
For me I had a clear experience that what was going on wasn't Catholic as the people neither seemed to believe or practice Catholicism, so it felt like sedevacantism in some sense was a necessary conclusion as all the "new stuff" seemed to directly oppose traditional Catholic belief and practice:
I feel this way a little bit too, I feel both sides are going to extremes and would like both to be put together. To me the Vatican 2 church is pretty much devoid of "Catholicism" and so a lot of sedevacantists (boomers) kind of "despair" about it and just want to try to pray at their little chapels or home away from it.
On the other hand, these "little operations" ignore some of the normal functioning of the Church and the institutions that are still intact with the Vatican 2 church (having most of the physical churches, colleges and schooling, nonprofits, and other such machinations).
So while I necessarily side with a specific little sedevacantist view and group of sorts loosely, I view this more as a temporary regrettable situation, whereas I do think a lot of sedes kind of don't care what happens with the V2 church: they feel powerless to change it, think maybe the world is ending soon, and their energies are absorbed with whatever little operations they're involved with.
Problem is, we have seen how the V2 hierarchy systematically shuts down any opposition, so it seems kind of pointless to try to "resist them from within". There is a whole list of "trad groups" that have made deals with the Vatican, only for the Vatican to force them to abandon traditional practices.
Hence this has made me conclude that when V2 is resolved, as I think it will be, it will probably be done all at once, with understanding going viral that the papal claimants since V2 cannot possibly be popes and V2 is not Catholic, leading to the election of a Catholic pope and end of the present drama.
The trads have mostly "failed" to set up any organized widespread "independent" operations, and they don't really have ordinary jurisdiction to do so. Yet, the V2 church has defected from Catholic teaching... but with the only visible clergy claimants being left (who might possibly have ordinary jurisdiction). Hence it seems at some point that pool of clergy will have to be considered to be that Catholic clergy and will have to elect a pope, with V2 being rejected.
I did have some talks with a late "conclavist" papal claimant about contacting various cardinals and bishops in the V2 church about conclavism (which is, sedevacantists electing a pope). Didn't end up happening, and I don't espouse the conclavist view anymore. Sedevacantists don't seem to have attempted to provoke much in the way of a widespread official response to sedevacantism, from the V2 church. Probably it will be done by someone eventually.
So yeah, I have gotten a sense of some sedevacantists just condescendingly having their own little operations and "looking down" on the V2 church, and I don't really identify with that. I think for the most part a lot of people don't even know about the idea of sedevacantism, although a growing number do.
>Problem is, we have seen how the V2 hierarchy systematically shuts down any opposition, so it seems kind of pointless to try to "resist them from within
Any opposition that is public, yes, but they cant do anything if Traditionalists take over the seminaries. Theyre currently desperate for priests, if we provide the priests, they will not be able to do anything about us taking back the Church. The jews took over the seminaries this way, and we can take them back in the same manner.
I see what you're saying. That's interesting: they stacked the deck to get so many modernists in charge, so we could just do the same to push back.
I guess I was taking the approach that probably you'd have to force their hand by intellectually proving the opposite position is true to a point no one could deny it, leading to necessary adoption of said view and consequent reform of things.
edit: one problem is a lot of them are doomers, don't think much can be done. There is some wisdom in this view, as it's in God's hands to decide when things are remedied. Yet, at other times their attitude seems wrongly passive to me. Ultimately someone needs to obtain a conviction about the correct thing to do, from God. A late mentor kind of agreed with me that no one seems to be getting a direct connection with God on what God's Will is, in the current situation. I do not personally think the "stacking the seminaries" approach would work or what I would be called to contribute to, but I can see how that would (and should) be entertained for consideration as a possible remedy, versus a virtual "do nothing" passive doomerist attitude.
>. Yet, at other times their attitude seems wrongly passive to me.
Because it is, expecting God to do all the work through Miracles instead of doing what He told us to is a sin called "Tempting God". Ultimately, we get the leaders we deserve because we do nothing, if we want better priests and bishops, we need to find good young men who hate modernity and wont compromise with it and get them into the seminaries.
For me I had a clear experience that what was going on wasn't Catholic as the people neither seemed to believe or practice Catholicism, so it felt like sedevacantism in some sense was a necessary conclusion as all the "new stuff" seemed to directly oppose traditional Catholic belief and practice:
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2016/09/28/4-very-few-americans-see-contraception-as-morally-wrong/
https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2016/09/28/poll-finds-many-us-catholics-breaking-church-over-contraception-abortion-and-lgbt
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/08/05/transubstantiation-eucharist-u-s-catholics/
> My main issue with sedes
I feel this way a little bit too, I feel both sides are going to extremes and would like both to be put together. To me the Vatican 2 church is pretty much devoid of "Catholicism" and so a lot of sedevacantists (boomers) kind of "despair" about it and just want to try to pray at their little chapels or home away from it.
On the other hand, these "little operations" ignore some of the normal functioning of the Church and the institutions that are still intact with the Vatican 2 church (having most of the physical churches, colleges and schooling, nonprofits, and other such machinations).
So while I necessarily side with a specific little sedevacantist view and group of sorts loosely, I view this more as a temporary regrettable situation, whereas I do think a lot of sedes kind of don't care what happens with the V2 church: they feel powerless to change it, think maybe the world is ending soon, and their energies are absorbed with whatever little operations they're involved with.
Problem is, we have seen how the V2 hierarchy systematically shuts down any opposition, so it seems kind of pointless to try to "resist them from within". There is a whole list of "trad groups" that have made deals with the Vatican, only for the Vatican to force them to abandon traditional practices.
Hence this has made me conclude that when V2 is resolved, as I think it will be, it will probably be done all at once, with understanding going viral that the papal claimants since V2 cannot possibly be popes and V2 is not Catholic, leading to the election of a Catholic pope and end of the present drama.
The trads have mostly "failed" to set up any organized widespread "independent" operations, and they don't really have ordinary jurisdiction to do so. Yet, the V2 church has defected from Catholic teaching... but with the only visible clergy claimants being left (who might possibly have ordinary jurisdiction). Hence it seems at some point that pool of clergy will have to be considered to be that Catholic clergy and will have to elect a pope, with V2 being rejected.
I did have some talks with a late "conclavist" papal claimant about contacting various cardinals and bishops in the V2 church about conclavism (which is, sedevacantists electing a pope). Didn't end up happening, and I don't espouse the conclavist view anymore. Sedevacantists don't seem to have attempted to provoke much in the way of a widespread official response to sedevacantism, from the V2 church. Probably it will be done by someone eventually.
So yeah, I have gotten a sense of some sedevacantists just condescendingly having their own little operations and "looking down" on the V2 church, and I don't really identify with that. I think for the most part a lot of people don't even know about the idea of sedevacantism, although a growing number do.
Any opposition that is public, yes, but they cant do anything if Traditionalists take over the seminaries. Theyre currently desperate for priests, if we provide the priests, they will not be able to do anything about us taking back the Church. The jews took over the seminaries this way, and we can take them back in the same manner.
I guess I was taking the approach that probably you'd have to force their hand by intellectually proving the opposite position is true to a point no one could deny it, leading to necessary adoption of said view and consequent reform of things.
edit: one problem is a lot of them are doomers, don't think much can be done. There is some wisdom in this view, as it's in God's hands to decide when things are remedied. Yet, at other times their attitude seems wrongly passive to me. Ultimately someone needs to obtain a conviction about the correct thing to do, from God. A late mentor kind of agreed with me that no one seems to be getting a direct connection with God on what God's Will is, in the current situation. I do not personally think the "stacking the seminaries" approach would work or what I would be called to contribute to, but I can see how that would (and should) be entertained for consideration as a possible remedy, versus a virtual "do nothing" passive doomerist attitude.
Because it is, expecting God to do all the work through Miracles instead of doing what He told us to is a sin called "Tempting God". Ultimately, we get the leaders we deserve because we do nothing, if we want better priests and bishops, we need to find good young men who hate modernity and wont compromise with it and get them into the seminaries.