There seems to be endless evidence for Himmler and Hitler having both Christian and Pagan beliefs, what they did not like were 'jews' and Atheists. Is it possible to be both Christain and folkish?
1 year ago6 points(+0/-0/+6Score on mirror)2 children
Christianity is paganism. Their roots are the same.
If you go way back to what the earliest pagans believed, it is the same as what Abraham believed.
If you go to the most ancient roots of German paganism, you will find the All-Father who created the universe and created man in his image and gave commandments. You will even find references to his Son.
There was a reason why Christian monks would move into pagan towns and cities and next thing you know the entire town had converted to Christianity. Instead of tearing down their ancient worship sites, they would build churches there, often incorporating the ancient holy elements in the church itself.
It was very rare that there was fighting between the Christians and pagans, and often only after the first flood of pagans had converted.
One of the things you'll note from history is that as pagans converted to Christianity they would bring heresies with them that only offended the Greek philosophy that had infiltrated Christianity, heresies like God being the actual father and Jesus being his actual son.
1 year ago1 point(+0/-0/+1Score on mirror)2 children
Yep. Read the OT. There's a lot of good stuff. If you can, look up "YHWH" and "ELOHIM" and find references to it in the KJV. It shows a lot about who Abraham worshiped. The God of Abraham has no resemblance to the modern God that modern Christianity invented.
To some degree, Aurelian had as much to do with bringing Christianity to Rome as Constantine did, since under the imperial cult, the DEUS ET DOMINUS NATUS solidified the idea that the old polytheistic religion was unified under SOL INVICTUS, one God uniting the people. Constantine bringing Christianity essentially just had to teach people that the pseudo-monotheistic Sol Invictus was one and the same as the God of the Trinity.
By the time that Constantine enters the scene, the cult that worshiped the God of Abraham had already been integrated with Christianity. There were none who followed it who weren't Christian (though many who never heard of it who were.)
I hadn't heard of Aurelian or Sol Invictus until you have mentioned it. I think the fact that Aurelian was messing with the religion of Rome in the 200s was a sign that they were probably messing with it in 200 BC or beyond. I do know that in Julius Caesar's time they were not at all about trying to unify all the religions and gods, but they were under the notion that the gods would present themselves to every nation perhaps under a different name or even a different title. So exploring a new area was more about learning more about their own gods than exploring new religions. That's why the Romans were so surprised to see the temple at Jerusalem empty. Here was an ancient religion, probably one of the most ancient given their strict adherence to tradition, and they had no idol at all.
You know what didn't surprise the Romans? The idea that there was a supreme God to rule over all other gods. Note that none of the Roman or Greek gods you are told about match that description. Some of our ancient history has been erased or replaced with deception.
Again -- I cite as evidence the fact that Jesus could send seventy disciples to distant parts of the land and they all come back reporting great success with sharing the message, and then later other disciples bearing the news of his resurrection could rapidly grow the church in distant lands. The fact that Roman centurions, people of great political clout and power and prestige, were asking Jesus to heal members of their inner household and speaking with Peter. The fact that Pontius Pilate didn't even blink when Jesus claimed that he was a king, or that King Agrippa could say "I am almost convinced to be a Christian myself." What did these people of nobility know that we don't? Why doesn't it make sense for people supposedly following the religion that we are told is Roman and Greek gods did not respond like we would expect them to?
I will look into Sol Invictus. I can't believe that Aurelian made it up out of nothing, but he is likely citing earlier religions or cults or writings to justify it. Thus, he may have unwittingly brought YHWH into Roman religion.
Yes, they definitely had meddled with their own religion quite a bit, part of that was because the position of the Pontifex Maximus, originally a separate title, gradually merged with leadership, in large part because of Julius Caesar holding the position of Pontifex Maximus, Consul, Dictator, and then later Dictator Perpetuo all at the same time. In large part this is why he was betrayed and murdered, his consolidation of power and his cult of personality freaked out the Senate who basically did to him what the judeo-Democrats did/are doing to Trump, by spinning endless rumors and lies about how "we totally need to stop Adolfus Hitlerus because he's going to become a dictator! Oh wait he's already a dictator, he's going to be like... a SUPER dictator! Oh wait he's already that too! Reeee!"
Not be outdone, Augustus simply declared that the title of Emperor and the Pontifex Maximus were one and the same, which gave the emperor essentially free will to direct the religion however he wanted, not totally unlike the head of the Church of England is also the monarch, thus you had kings simply making up new religious laws when it benefit them (looking at you Henry VIII). Over time this led to a lot of nonsense like Emperor Caligula declaring himself a living god, and everyone just kind of had to pretend to go with it, because he was the Pontifex Maximus.
BTW definitely look into Aurelian. He was by far the greatest and most competent Emperor that ever held the title. When he took power Rome was essentially in the same state as the Weimar Republic - endless internal uprisings, dissolving borders, a collapsed economy, a devastating plague, and total degeneracy and instability. In five years, he restored the entire Empire to greatness. The city of Orleans in France is named after him.
I had always thought Marcus Aurelius, the famous Stoic philosopher-emperor was one of the greatest. I didn't know much about Aurelian. I will look into him.
I think we both agree that our modern ideas about what the Romans actually believed and did in ancient times are a horrible misrepresentation. The only myths that survive are poor retellings of poor retellings of stories probably meant to convey powerful truths to indigent people.
Since ancient times, the king has naturally been the pope, and vice-versa. Having a separate church and state is a very odd way to run things, and I'm not convinced we are doing it right.
1 year ago2 points(+0/-0/+2Score on mirror)1 child
Christianity stole a lot of Pagan beliefs when it was first gaining popularity in order to better recruit new followers from Pagan religions. And also many Pagans who converted brought to Christianity their Pagan beliefs which helped shaped Christianity to be Pagan-like. There's lots of overlap. Many of the core "stories" of Christianity are coopted from much older Pagan stories. Protestants often notice these similarities and accuse Catholicism of being Pagan but Protestantism is founded on the same Pagan beliefs as Catholicism even if Protestants try to get rid of the Pagan styling that Catholicism keeps in the religion.
Christianity without its Pagan roots is actually a pretty terrible and slavish religion, imo.
There seems to be endless evidence for Himmler and Hitler having both Christian and Pagan beliefs, what they did not like were 'jews' and Atheists. Is it possible to be both Christain and folkish?
If you go way back to what the earliest pagans believed, it is the same as what Abraham believed.
If you go to the most ancient roots of German paganism, you will find the All-Father who created the universe and created man in his image and gave commandments. You will even find references to his Son.
There was a reason why Christian monks would move into pagan towns and cities and next thing you know the entire town had converted to Christianity. Instead of tearing down their ancient worship sites, they would build churches there, often incorporating the ancient holy elements in the church itself.
It was very rare that there was fighting between the Christians and pagans, and often only after the first flood of pagans had converted.
One of the things you'll note from history is that as pagans converted to Christianity they would bring heresies with them that only offended the Greek philosophy that had infiltrated Christianity, heresies like God being the actual father and Jesus being his actual son.
It is bad that we have an incorrect notion of who God is. It is bad that we believe the lies we are told without question.
2. Website is all about "Christianity is NAZISM" Rule 90.
I hadn't heard of Aurelian or Sol Invictus until you have mentioned it. I think the fact that Aurelian was messing with the religion of Rome in the 200s was a sign that they were probably messing with it in 200 BC or beyond. I do know that in Julius Caesar's time they were not at all about trying to unify all the religions and gods, but they were under the notion that the gods would present themselves to every nation perhaps under a different name or even a different title. So exploring a new area was more about learning more about their own gods than exploring new religions. That's why the Romans were so surprised to see the temple at Jerusalem empty. Here was an ancient religion, probably one of the most ancient given their strict adherence to tradition, and they had no idol at all.
You know what didn't surprise the Romans? The idea that there was a supreme God to rule over all other gods. Note that none of the Roman or Greek gods you are told about match that description. Some of our ancient history has been erased or replaced with deception.
Again -- I cite as evidence the fact that Jesus could send seventy disciples to distant parts of the land and they all come back reporting great success with sharing the message, and then later other disciples bearing the news of his resurrection could rapidly grow the church in distant lands. The fact that Roman centurions, people of great political clout and power and prestige, were asking Jesus to heal members of their inner household and speaking with Peter. The fact that Pontius Pilate didn't even blink when Jesus claimed that he was a king, or that King Agrippa could say "I am almost convinced to be a Christian myself." What did these people of nobility know that we don't? Why doesn't it make sense for people supposedly following the religion that we are told is Roman and Greek gods did not respond like we would expect them to?
I will look into Sol Invictus. I can't believe that Aurelian made it up out of nothing, but he is likely citing earlier religions or cults or writings to justify it. Thus, he may have unwittingly brought YHWH into Roman religion.
Not be outdone, Augustus simply declared that the title of Emperor and the Pontifex Maximus were one and the same, which gave the emperor essentially free will to direct the religion however he wanted, not totally unlike the head of the Church of England is also the monarch, thus you had kings simply making up new religious laws when it benefit them (looking at you Henry VIII). Over time this led to a lot of nonsense like Emperor Caligula declaring himself a living god, and everyone just kind of had to pretend to go with it, because he was the Pontifex Maximus.
BTW definitely look into Aurelian. He was by far the greatest and most competent Emperor that ever held the title. When he took power Rome was essentially in the same state as the Weimar Republic - endless internal uprisings, dissolving borders, a collapsed economy, a devastating plague, and total degeneracy and instability. In five years, he restored the entire Empire to greatness. The city of Orleans in France is named after him.
I think we both agree that our modern ideas about what the Romans actually believed and did in ancient times are a horrible misrepresentation. The only myths that survive are poor retellings of poor retellings of stories probably meant to convey powerful truths to indigent people.
Since ancient times, the king has naturally been the pope, and vice-versa. Having a separate church and state is a very odd way to run things, and I'm not convinced we are doing it right.
Christianity without its Pagan roots is actually a pretty terrible and slavish religion, imo.