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CrusaderPepe on scored.co
1 month ago0 points(+0/-0)1 child
I am going before the Fathers — that’s precisely why I’m rejecting the “Edomite replacement” thesis.
Yes, Josephus records that the Idumeans (Edomites) were incorporated into Judea under John Hyrcanus in the 2nd century BC. That’s not disputed. But incorporation through conversion does not mean wholesale ethnic replacement. Ancient Judaism accepted converts (cf. Exodus 12:48; Isaiah 56:6–7). Once incorporated, they were considered part of the Jewish people.
More importantly, neither Josephus, the New Testament, nor the Church Fathers interpret first-century Judea as “not really Israel.” The Apostles call them Israelites (Romans 9:3–5). St. Paul distinguishes between “Israel according to the flesh” and the faithful remnant (Rom 9–11), but he does not argue they were secretly Edomites. His point is theological — about faith and promise — not ethnic replacement.
When Paul says “not all who are of Israel are Israel” (Rom 9:6), he immediately explains that he means children of promise vs. children of the flesh, not Edomites vs. Israelites. The Fathers consistently read it spiritually, not racially.
If you can show a Father who teaches that the Jews of Christ’s time were predominantly Edomites and therefore not truly Israel, I’m willing to examine it. But absent that, this looks like a modern extrapolation layered onto ancient history.
Disagreement isn’t intellectual dishonesty. It’s asking for evidence beyond a leap from “some Idumeans were incorporated” to “Israel wasn’t really Israel.”
Let’s stick to what the texts actually say — Josephus, Paul, and the Fathers — not what later polemics wish they said.
Edomites being integrated by men into Judea (against the OT laws) doesn't mean they're integrated into the promises to the fathers.
Esau was excluded because he was a race mixer. He married Hittites, who are also mixed with Canaanites and Kennites. They have ancestors who don't go entirely back to Adam and Eve, that's really the issue here. That's why we can't call them Israel, or even Adamites.
The moment that mixing occurs, the chain is broken and those children and their descendants don't have the eternal spirit given to Adam. They can't be said to be God's creation, it goes against kind after kind, the first law given at the beginning of Genesis.
Yes, Josephus records that the Idumeans (Edomites) were incorporated into Judea under John Hyrcanus in the 2nd century BC. That’s not disputed. But incorporation through conversion does not mean wholesale ethnic replacement. Ancient Judaism accepted converts (cf. Exodus 12:48; Isaiah 56:6–7). Once incorporated, they were considered part of the Jewish people.
More importantly, neither Josephus, the New Testament, nor the Church Fathers interpret first-century Judea as “not really Israel.” The Apostles call them Israelites (Romans 9:3–5). St. Paul distinguishes between “Israel according to the flesh” and the faithful remnant (Rom 9–11), but he does not argue they were secretly Edomites. His point is theological — about faith and promise — not ethnic replacement.
When Paul says “not all who are of Israel are Israel” (Rom 9:6), he immediately explains that he means children of promise vs. children of the flesh, not Edomites vs. Israelites. The Fathers consistently read it spiritually, not racially.
If you can show a Father who teaches that the Jews of Christ’s time were predominantly Edomites and therefore not truly Israel, I’m willing to examine it. But absent that, this looks like a modern extrapolation layered onto ancient history.
Disagreement isn’t intellectual dishonesty. It’s asking for evidence beyond a leap from “some Idumeans were incorporated” to “Israel wasn’t really Israel.”
Let’s stick to what the texts actually say — Josephus, Paul, and the Fathers — not what later polemics wish they said.
Esau was excluded because he was a race mixer. He married Hittites, who are also mixed with Canaanites and Kennites. They have ancestors who don't go entirely back to Adam and Eve, that's really the issue here. That's why we can't call them Israel, or even Adamites.
The moment that mixing occurs, the chain is broken and those children and their descendants don't have the eternal spirit given to Adam. They can't be said to be God's creation, it goes against kind after kind, the first law given at the beginning of Genesis.