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bluewhiteandred on scored.co
1 month ago0 points(+0/-0)1 child
(didnt watch vid disclaimer, commenting on title)
Love God / Neighbor
I guess I'd comment the top focus for Catholics / Christians is: "Love God with all your heart ... and neighbor as yourself" Matthew 22:37
> is TLMM limited hangout distraction from JQ
now, imo TLMM is a bit of a distraction from a "full resolution of the conflict Vatican 2 has generated". The problem is TLMM can function as a kind of , I forget what the word is, like a "stopgap": people are like "yeah, Vatican 2 is bad, but I got my clergy here and sacraments and that's good enough for me". This allows them to "check out" of the situation: laymen to their chapels, "clergy" to some kind of group ("independent", SSPX, CMRI, etc.).
But imo the home alone sedevacantist position is temporarily necessary and correct in contrast to this viewpoint, i.e. these "clergy" are illicit and to be avoided, and there are no such sacraments like that that can be ordinarily received. If this position is recognized, then it forces people to have the thought process of, "we don't have a pope or clergy, so we must resolve this Vatican 2 conflict to have those things again".
Which then I think will eventually "force" the masses of people to become "traditionalist", then sedevacantist, then to strike down the current papal claimants as invalid and elect a pope.
(this last step isn't even agreed upon by sedevacantists but I think it must necessarily logically follow that, that's all that's gonna happen - a mass awareness that tradition is still important, an awareness the Vatican is a "hard fork" incompatible with tradition, and then necessarily an election of an explicitly traditional pope with Vatican 2 being explicitly rejected).
What to Think of JQ?
Regarding JQ with all this, it naturally pops up to me as a kind of "side quest" in realizing these things. My experience was growing up with the Vatican 2 modernism and questioning what's going on. Then you find "traditionalism", and people bring up the JQ here and there. Jews are mentioned as one enemy of Catholicism who have worked to orchestrate Vatican 2 to "neuter" Catholicism; for example, many Jews who "celebrated" the issuing of Nostra Aetate.
Sometimes I think for the masses of people, they don't need to think about the JQ. It's sufficient enough to show Nostra Aetate contradicts by ambiguity previous attitudes about the Jews, without having to go in to Zionism or anything with "anti-Semitism", and to just establish V2's not based on a Catholic belief or attitude. This can maybe avoid quagmires of discussion about "conspiracy theories" which average people can be prejudiced against (depends on the audience; maga people may be more open to talking in this way if there are other "conspiracy theories" they agree with. moderates, rinos, random libs... maybe not as much).
You can bring up that a bunch of Jews are liberals according to polls, and in liberal leadership positions (late RGB, Fed chairs, etc.).
The JQ can also distract us maybe from loving God and neighbor at times.
Sometimes the patterns are "noticed" and it may pop up as a concrete issue though - for example if some try to make out "traditionalism" to be "anti-Semitic" and you end up having to clarify what they "really mean by what they're saying" (the word is often used ambiguously as a kind of weapon, not unlike ambiguous V2 statements).
Lack of Awareness of Tradition at all
Lastly though I wanted to add for OP that I talked to AI a bit and what emerged from discussion is: it does seem like maybe the general problem is people aren't aware that "traditionalism" exists at all (or possibly in this instance, the JQ). I mean, I know people are aware of "tradition" a little bit (older people who experienced changes from more traditional to "modern"). But a lot of people have just accepted "modernist" changes as "legit" and have thought old traditions are just "outdated", and that's about the extent of their thought on the issue sometimes, and they are busy about the other things going on in life.
I've had this thought pre-AI, that people don't even know sedevacantism exists, let alone will they have much of an opinion about the topic. I know through my own experience of parochial schools that it was possible to get into adulthood entirely without thinking much about Vatican 2 and I could see having lived a "normie" life where I never even became aware of "tradition" much at all (!). My signal was some practical problems that cropped up due to people living "modern lifestyles", which suggested these aren't equal to "traditional beliefs and practices".
Recap / TL;DR
Loving God and neighbor are the most important things. The spread of awareness of traditionalism and JQ may be important. Personal opinion is awareness of traditionalism leads to sedevacantism and then future public rejection of V2 and election of a pope globally after there's sufficient awareness worldwide.
Love God / Neighbor
I guess I'd comment the top focus for Catholics / Christians is: "Love God with all your heart ... and neighbor as yourself" Matthew 22:37
> is TLMM limited hangout distraction from JQ
now, imo TLMM is a bit of a distraction from a "full resolution of the conflict Vatican 2 has generated". The problem is TLMM can function as a kind of , I forget what the word is, like a "stopgap": people are like "yeah, Vatican 2 is bad, but I got my clergy here and sacraments and that's good enough for me". This allows them to "check out" of the situation: laymen to their chapels, "clergy" to some kind of group ("independent", SSPX, CMRI, etc.).
But imo the home alone sedevacantist position is temporarily necessary and correct in contrast to this viewpoint, i.e. these "clergy" are illicit and to be avoided, and there are no such sacraments like that that can be ordinarily received. If this position is recognized, then it forces people to have the thought process of, "we don't have a pope or clergy, so we must resolve this Vatican 2 conflict to have those things again".
Which then I think will eventually "force" the masses of people to become "traditionalist", then sedevacantist, then to strike down the current papal claimants as invalid and elect a pope.
(this last step isn't even agreed upon by sedevacantists but I think it must necessarily logically follow that, that's all that's gonna happen - a mass awareness that tradition is still important, an awareness the Vatican is a "hard fork" incompatible with tradition, and then necessarily an election of an explicitly traditional pope with Vatican 2 being explicitly rejected).
What to Think of JQ?
Regarding JQ with all this, it naturally pops up to me as a kind of "side quest" in realizing these things. My experience was growing up with the Vatican 2 modernism and questioning what's going on. Then you find "traditionalism", and people bring up the JQ here and there. Jews are mentioned as one enemy of Catholicism who have worked to orchestrate Vatican 2 to "neuter" Catholicism; for example, many Jews who "celebrated" the issuing of Nostra Aetate.
Sometimes I think for the masses of people, they don't need to think about the JQ. It's sufficient enough to show Nostra Aetate contradicts by ambiguity previous attitudes about the Jews, without having to go in to Zionism or anything with "anti-Semitism", and to just establish V2's not based on a Catholic belief or attitude. This can maybe avoid quagmires of discussion about "conspiracy theories" which average people can be prejudiced against (depends on the audience; maga people may be more open to talking in this way if there are other "conspiracy theories" they agree with. moderates, rinos, random libs... maybe not as much).
You can bring up that a bunch of Jews are liberals according to polls, and in liberal leadership positions (late RGB, Fed chairs, etc.).
The JQ can also distract us maybe from loving God and neighbor at times.
Sometimes the patterns are "noticed" and it may pop up as a concrete issue though - for example if some try to make out "traditionalism" to be "anti-Semitic" and you end up having to clarify what they "really mean by what they're saying" (the word is often used ambiguously as a kind of weapon, not unlike ambiguous V2 statements).
Lack of Awareness of Tradition at all
Lastly though I wanted to add for OP that I talked to AI a bit and what emerged from discussion is: it does seem like maybe the general problem is people aren't aware that "traditionalism" exists at all (or possibly in this instance, the JQ). I mean, I know people are aware of "tradition" a little bit (older people who experienced changes from more traditional to "modern"). But a lot of people have just accepted "modernist" changes as "legit" and have thought old traditions are just "outdated", and that's about the extent of their thought on the issue sometimes, and they are busy about the other things going on in life.
I've had this thought pre-AI, that people don't even know sedevacantism exists, let alone will they have much of an opinion about the topic. I know through my own experience of parochial schools that it was possible to get into adulthood entirely without thinking much about Vatican 2 and I could see having lived a "normie" life where I never even became aware of "tradition" much at all (!). My signal was some practical problems that cropped up due to people living "modern lifestyles", which suggested these aren't equal to "traditional beliefs and practices".
Recap / TL;DR
Loving God and neighbor are the most important things. The spread of awareness of traditionalism and JQ may be important. Personal opinion is awareness of traditionalism leads to sedevacantism and then future public rejection of V2 and election of a pope globally after there's sufficient awareness worldwide.