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posted 1 month ago by RealWildRanter on scored.co (+0 / -0 / +13Score on mirror )
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devotech2 on scored.co
1 month ago 3 points (+0 / -0 / +3Score on mirror ) 2 children
What a disgusting abomination of a crowd

Let's discuss how the jews pacified the western leftist because in the past, more often than not, fascist states were born out of the left in western countries more than communist states ever were.

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Mussolini: communist

Oswald mosley: socialist labor MP

Hitler: maybe kinda sorta a communist right after ww1, didn't last long though

Rivera: socialist

Göbbels: socialist

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Radical leftists, if not able to attain political victory within enough time, will eventually intermingle with the radical right. This creates fascism, the poison of the jews. This has happened every single time until the 60s when the hippie "counter culture" emerged and permanently neutered the left.

3 out of 3 of the third western positionist countries that existed (Spain, Italy, Germany) were created out of anti capitalist leftist movements. In the case of spain and Italy, these movements were directly siphoned out of the communists and anarchists themselves (Franco ended up being a neocon, but falangism itself is left fascist syndicalism.). In the case of the nsdap, it was created out of Hitlers independent theory of socialism that was not derived from prior marxist socialism, but was still antagonistic to liberalism and leaned left.

This is gone now, at least anywhere west of Russia, and the average leftist is a lower middle class subhuman that shouldn't exist, and they have absolutely no understanding of their own theory.

Here's a challenge: try to find a communist that has read any marx besides the communist manifesto. Or that has read any theory at all from any other author. It's almost none of them.

Furthermore, I consider that Israel must be destroyed
RealWildRanter on scored.co
1 month ago 3 points (+0 / -0 / +3Score on mirror )
Ignorance is not a bug, it's a feature working as intended as shown in your excellent post. When the fucking Rockefellers designed the educational system and the take over of Christianism the western world was doomed. But that was just preparation for their checkmate as the plan started much earlier. If we are committed to revert this damage we have to trace back their steps and counter each one. Thankfully we're in the information age so we don't need to be billionaires to change the course of history.
HimmlerWasRight88 on scored.co
1 month ago 0 points (+0 / -0 ) 1 child
> (Spain, Italy, Germany) were created out of anti capitalist leftist movements.

The opposition to capitalism from Mussolini and Hitler has never been in any way shape or form connected to Marxism. One can be against capitalism without being a communist.

It is unclear what you mean with "leftist", but the crucial point is that fascism rejects Marx's theory of historical materialism and rejects Marx's theory of class warfare.

The theory of class warfare is completely embedded in the Anglo political system today, so you have grotesque debates with one side arguing that Mussolini / Hitler were left because they controlled private companies, and on the other side they say they were right wing because they eliminated trade unions and privatized stuff.

It's just a limited mindset, within the overton window conceded by the Jews, which is based on Marx's theories.
When Mussolini or Hitler talked about "socialism" they did not mean what is commonly understood today in English in the anglosphere.
devotech2 on scored.co
1 month ago 1 point (+0 / -0 / +1Score on mirror ) 1 child
>The opposition to capitalism from Mussolini and Hitler has never been in any way shape or form connected to Marxism

You are correct with the claim about hitler, which I myself posited in the thread, but mussolinis opposition to capitalism was rooted in marxism for about 20 years before he distanced himself from it completely, and whether or not he did entirely distance himself from it is in fact to an extent debatable.

There is not one overarching "fascism" for everyone. In Italy there existed 2 strands of fascism: the corporatist strand of fascism as envisioned by giovanni gentile, and what would be the dominant version of fascism. This was largely born out of necessity because the futurist x syndicalist x left-interventionist socialist "old guard" of fascism was a minority in the party compared to the new traditionalists, reactionaries, and conservatives who joined the party after the march on rome. Gentile's fascism was pure syncretism to give both of these groups what they wanted, and it worked for the most part.

Then there is the original fascism. The fascism of the "fasci di combattimento", which was a hybrid faction consisting primarily of dissenting leftists who mainly disagreed with the official lime of the Italian socialist party in terms of the national question. This party combined the aforementioned futurists (who were so radically anti traditional and anti reactionary that they made the bolsheviks look like tsarists), syndicalists, and prior italian socialist party members. This faction once again was prominent in the Italian social Republic, because the conservatives who joined later on mostly went against mussolini. I would recommend looking into Sansepolcrismo and the original manifesto of fascism from 1919 (which was co written by marinetti, the founder of futurism) If you want to understand mussolini's ever present leftism.

There are in fact very few direct quotes from mussolini that condemn even marxist socialism at all. The only public criticism he made of the bolsheviks was that they weren't socialist *enough*, but he recognized lenins USSR anyways. Mussolini even made an attempt to align with the Italian socialist and communist parties, and the general confederation of labor, with the fascist party, and absorb them. But this was nipped in the bud by the blackshirts who went apeshit at the prospect of doing this.

Furthermore, I consider that Israel must be destroyed

HimmlerWasRight88 on scored.co
1 month ago 0 points (+0 / -0 ) 1 child
It's difficult to have this conversation using labels, because there aren't official definitions for political terms and they mean different things to different people. For example Marx was openly against "socialism" which he defined as the desire to improve the condition of the workers without a change of the economic system.

This is an interesting conversation as I'm quite keen to know more about Italian fascism.
Before answering this I have reviewed both the manifesto of 1919 and *The Doctrine of Fascism* (1933).
There is almost no trace of Marxism in the manifesto of 1919 which suggests that you call "socialism" and / or "leftism" any government interference in the economy and/or attempt to improve the conditions of the working class. Please let me know if this is not the case, but this is a typical fallacy of anglosphere politics today.

As I said in my previous post, the foundations of Marxism (or we could say, Marxian socialism) are historical materialism and class warfare. You need to understand these two concepts for us to be able to have this conversation.

In *The Doctrine of Fascism*, Mussolini explicitly rejects both of those. Moreover, he rejects the concept of equality (especially political equality) which by definition puts him solidly in the right wing camp. He also proposes the concept of unity based on the greater good of the Nation, with the good being defined as not just material good of individuals but as the material and spiritual collective good for the present and for the future (generations). This convincingly makes him against liberalism, which he openly rebukes.

It is true that his political positions may have changed over time, which was your original point, but from your previous comment I'm not seeing any examples of Mussolini having been a leftist. Again, something like "*enactment of a state law enshrining the legal eight-hour workday for all jobs. Minimum wages.*" for me are not necessarily left wing ideas. I'm sure there must have been an absolute monarchy somewhere that passed something like that.

Moreover, it is possible that some positions, alliances, or declarations were done for reasons of expediency. Such as paying lip service to "proletarians".
Both Mussolini and Hitler were practical men, not philosophers who had the luxury of elaborating their thoughts in a blank canvas. They had to get power. So they were probably adapting their messages, doing alliances, potentially even lying at times. And in any case fascism is not dogmatic.

Obviously I don't claim to know much so if you have any other argument in support of:

> mussolinis opposition to capitalism was rooted in marxism for about 20 years before he distanced himself from it completely

I'd be happy to hear it.
Just to clarify, up to when do you think he was rooted in Marxism and at what point he distanced himself? Sometimes before 1933?

devotech2 on scored.co
1 month ago 0 points (+0 / -0 ) 1 child
Note: we would not consider these positions to be explicitly leftist at this time because most of these points have already been taken up by even the most conservative of movements. However, at the time in the post ww1 world, only the ussr had more progressivism in their policies than nascent fascism did.

>Universal suffrage by regional list voting, with proportional representation, voting and eligibility for women

>The nationalization of all arms and explosives factories

>The entrusting to the proletarian organizations themselves (who are morally and technically worthy) of the management of public industries or services.

>Disability and Old Age Insurance Bill by lowering the age limit, currently proposed at 65, to 55.

These are all quite left wing points from the 1919 manifesto. Most notably, the third point is quite literally advocating for marxist socialism. That is: the means of production being owned by the proletariat. Which it lays out plainly as a goal. The doctrine of fascism is less useful than the 1919 manifesto in seeing mussolini's viewpoint as a person. The entire thing was written by giovanni gentile and mussolini had little input on it.

What comes from mussolini and what comes from marinetti (who, again, was so radically to the left that nobody really held a candle to him, not even lenin) is hard to say, because we don't know who made each point. However, the fact that mussolini agreed to it is very much telling.

>Moreover, it is possible that some positions, alliances, or declarations were done for reasons of expediency. Such as paying lip service to "proletarians".

In mussolini's case it was definitely the other way around. Mussolini had to pay lip service to the "bourgeoisie" rather than the proletariat. Why? Because the fascist party ended up absorbing a bunch of people that he hated. Largely by accident. Shared opposition to the Italian socialist (and later the Italian communist) party, and a sense of fear that they absolutely had to join one or the other, made a whole lot of italy's liberals and conservatives file into the fascist movement.

>concept of equality (especially political equality) which by definition puts him solidly in the right wing camp.

True, but so did the soviet union in practice. So mussolini is not very special here, he's just more honest about his disbelief in equality than the soviets were.

>historical materialism and class warfare

Fascism's rejection of materialism goes back a very long way to sorelianism, which was the splinter of marxism that would go on to create the violent and revolutionary bolshevism and fascism respectively, as well as any descended ideologies. But I think that you may be confusing historical materialism - the viewpoint that material conditions drive social change - with philosophical materialism - the viewpoint that there is nothing apart from the material world. Both the marxists and the fascists were historical materialists. Mussolini and Lenin both advocated dialectical materialism in its most extreme form and were dismissed from their parties because of it. Lenin would create the bolsheviks out of disgruntled russian social democrats and mussolini would create the fascists out of disgruntled socialists.

As for rejecting class warfare, it's debatable. Not all fascism is corporatist and mussolini flirted with the concept of class warfare multiple times. The fascist syndicalists and futurists fully believed in class warfare. In the 1919 manifesto, mussolini advocates proletarian control of industry. Class collaborationism was the official party line, but again, the fascist party was syncretic and appealed to a lot of different interests in the best way that they could. What mussolini himself did or did not believe about class conflict is, well, debatable, because he himself made somewhat contradictory statements on the issue. But if I had to guess, considering that he was an adamant marxist for 20 years who almost died for it on numerous occasions, I'd speculate that he was at least somewhat partial to the thought of it.

>up to when do you think he was rooted in Marxism and at what point he distanced himself? Sometimes before 1933?

It's somewhat difficult to quantify but I'd say mussolini had multiple different breaks with Marxism:

The first would be in 1914 when he was expelled from the socialist party for advocating italys entry into ww1 to create the conditions for revolution.

The second would be the upon the founding of the Fasci Italiani di Combattimento. This was the point where he was very clearly diverged from marxism, but he still dipped his foot into it on a regular basis. And he still considered the ussr as a natural ally at this point.

The third would be when he merged the fascist party with italys conservative parties and won the 1924 elections. Though he didn't actually want to create the national list, and would have rather absorbed italys left instead. The blackshirts threatened to revolt if he did not do it. This one only kind of counts

Finally, the last would be whenever Italy joined the invasion of the ussr and abandoned its previously friendly and cordial relationship with the USSR. Most notably, Italy manufactured all of the ball bearings that were used on soviet tanks built before operation barbarossa. So, ironically, if not for an axis country, the ussr would not have functional tanks to repel the invasion of an axis country.

Furthermore, I consider that Israel must be destroyed
HimmlerWasRight88 on scored.co
1 month ago 0 points (+0 / -0 )
Interesting.
I'd say that we need to distinguish between Fascism as a political ideology, and the various ideas of Mussolini over time. The former is what interests me the most, as I am into political theory more than I am into history.

What sources are you using?
I'm getting a bit confused about the sources, because I have:
1) The Political and Social Doctrine of Fascism, London: Hogarth Press, 1933, translated by Soames
2) Origins and Doctrine of Fascism, by Giovanni Gentile, translated by James Gregor.

They are different.

The 1) Seems to me the best description of what Fascism is in general. Would you agree? Or would you have something else to recommend?

The 2) makes it clear that they see history as the struggle of the Italian people as a nation. Nationalism is the key component of Fascism. But I can't understand where this text comes from.


> I think that you may be confusing historical materialism - the viewpoint that material conditions drive social change - with philosophical materialism - the viewpoint that there is nothing apart from the material world. Both the marxists and the fascists were historical materialists.

Oh no, I'm not confused, I know the difference.
From the 2 sources above it clearly rejects historical materialism.

But thanks for the interesting conversation, I didn't know Mussolini has such a... *questionable* origin story!

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